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It does not sound like Max du Preez

February 28, 2013 in South Africa

AUDIO:Minister Lulu Xingwana on Afrikaner men

26 February 2013 – 18:49
By JacarandaFM News Team

Women Minister Lulu Xingwana blames violence against women in South Africa on Afrikaner Calvinism

LISTEN TO THE AUDIO

Minister Xingwana remarked on Australian news programme, ABC News, that young Afrikaners and their Calvinism should carry the blame for violence against women and children in South Africa. Listen to the audio here.

Minister Xingwana remarked on Australian news programme, ABC News, that young Afrikaners and their Calvinism should carry the blame for violence against women and children in South Africa. Listen to the audio here.

http://www.jacarandafm.com/kagiso/content/en/jacaranda/jacaranda-news?oid=1842449&sn=Detail&pid=6182&AUDIO–Minister-Lulu-Xingwana-on-Afrikaner-men

Lulu Xingwana sorry for Calvinist jibe

28 Feb 2013

Sapa


JOHANNESBURG — Minister of Women, Children and People with Disabilities Lulu Xingwana yesterday apologised for her comments about Afrikaner men: “It has become clear to me that my comments may have offended some members of our community.
“I would, accordingly, like to retract these remarks and apologise unconditionally to them,” she said.
Xingwana told the Australian Broadcasting Corporation that young Afrikaner men were raised to believe they owned women and children.
“Young Afrikaner men are brought up in the Calvinist religion believing that they own a woman, they own a child, they own everything and therefore they can take that life because they own it,” she said during the interview aired on Monday.
“We also have cultural differences as well in our own communities where we have women who are forced into marriage and we are dealing with all those issues.”
Xingwana was being interviewed following the arrest of paralympian Oscar Pistorius after the fatal shooting of his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp on February 14.
“Through my comments, I sought to convey the message that, as a country we have emerged from a very violent past and that some tend to use cultural and religious beliefs to justify gender inequality and abuse,” she said.
Earlier, the Afrikanerbond said Xingwana had proven beyond doubt she was not fit to hold office in a constitutional democracy.
The Christian Democratic Party called for President Jacob Zuma to fire her.
“Many non-Afrikaners, black and white, are members of Calvinist churches and her latest statement could be considered as religious intolerance,” party spokesman Rev Theunis Botha said.

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I guess that in a country where women has little value, where domestic violence is the most common crime with the highest number of rapes and violence against a women in the world and a scourge of femicide, one could expect the good Rev, to term the Lulu comments as religious intolerance. This is the same church that agreed that people of colour were subhuman, had no souls should be subjected to Apartheid, and forced removals to benefit the white community and white males in particular.

Lulu might have been more careful about the way she related this bit of South African history and its real and perceived impact on the South African society, especially on the lives of people of colour, but read http://blogs.24.com/jeanihess/2013/02/28/afrikaner-calvinism-3/ and do your own further research and decide about the role of this once most powerful church in South Africa role in the story of South Africa.

And then there is Max du Preez. I have often admired him. This time I can’t. This time i feel let down.

He has a problem with Australia? it would perhaps have been better if Lulu made her comments in Britain?

He confuses the individual and the family with the religious social and political constructs that were part of the determination of the economic status of women and people of colour?

Right on Max- resist racism and the temptation for racist remarks just as long as it does not hit too close to home.

By the way, what was that about university students giving domestic workers food mixed with urine, about learners beating to death a homeless man, about men tying a man to a truck and dragging him to death, about dumping a man in a lion’s cage- the list goes on and we won’t talk here about what happens on farms and while i am sure that you have a list of farm murders (white deaths) at your finger tips, do you have the list for people of colour that were murdered in farm attacks too .. and of the workers that were abused in various ways? And Max,talking about owning women and children- what was that about family murders that South Africa was so known for?

You were always a beacon of hope to me Max, and I feel that i have lost something precious in you.

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Max Du Preez’s Blog

February 1, 2012

Resist racism

White South Africans should really resist the temptation to make racist remarks when they’re faced with what they perceive as black racism, says Max du Preez.

·         Max du Preez writes: Fifty Shades of Boerehaat?

The killing of Reeva Steenkamp by Oscar Pistorius has brought out the worst in people, from journalists to politicians to ordinary people. We read on the weekend (M&G) that the problem with violence against women has a relationship to the macho rugby culture among white men; that Pistorius got treated differently because he was white and rich – what an insult to Magistrate Nair, one of the best in the country.

Now we have cabinet minister Lulu Xingwana saying to (of all places) Australian radio that the problem starts with Afrikaner men and their Calvinist upbringing who think all things, including women and children, belong to them to treat as they want.

I am a product of a Calvinist Christian-National Afrikaner upbringing of the extreme Free State platteland kind and not only am I a rugby fanatic, I played the game (not very well, though) from the age of six to well into my twenties.

I can write a book about the downside of Afrikaner Calvinism, but hating or disrespecting women and children would not feature. The women in my family were and are strong, independent human beings whom all the men in the family love and respect deeply. Whenever my father or uncles acted as if they were “the head of the family”, we all chuckled behind our hinds and said Ag shame.

Minister Xingwana should read the story (in my books Of Tricksters, Tyrants and Turncoats and Oor Krygers, Korrelkoppe en Konkelaars) of the wife of General Koos de la Rey, one of the most prominent patriarchs and Calvinist fundamentalists in Afrikaner history. Her name was Nonnie. She was not only the head of the rather big De la Rey family in every sense, her husband made very few decisions without her, even when he was a general in the Anglo Boer War. More than that: she stood up to the British generals who not only respected her, but actually feared her as much as they feared her husband’s military prowess. They knew: don’t mess with a stoere Boervrou.

(By the way, I wonder if Lulu realises that one of her own struggle icons, dominee Beyers Naude, was also a staunch Afrikaner Calvinist right to the end?)

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See here for comments on Max’s piece

http://www.facebook.com/195909420099/posts/10151473248505100

20 responses to It does not sound like Max du Preez

  1. ‘Fraid, for the life of me, I can’t see your argument with Max on this one. Let’s face it, Lulu’s remarks were singularly silly and insensitive. Also ironic, because the far more prevalent ‘issues’ with black attitudes towards women were swept swiftly aside.
    You hark back to Calvanistic attitudes of way-back-when in justification, when they were far more rooted in smugly fanatical religious intolerance than now. We need to deal with the here and now.

  2. Good morning Colonialist:)
    It’s OK if you can’t see my argument.
    When I did my gender training, and gender takes in the wellbeing of men and women, with violence against women being related but separate, we studied stuff like company logos and emblems and what they represent; the make up of the board and the history the organization is rooted in and how much change is reflected.
    With the almost absolute disassociation to gender violence and violence against women and domestic violence in this country, which means by the citizens, the people, which is why these crimes can thrive as an expression of male power and anger, it is not at all difficult to understand how my disagreement with Max is not understood.
    On the other hand I do not agree with Lulu because I think that while she says that she was taken out of context, she also did not properly contextualize her remarks and she should have known that it would have been better to refer historic socio-economic and religious constructs and their roles in oppression than to directly and exclusively refer Calvinism.
    There is for me, after all reasons why I did not adopt Calvinism. It is not as if it is something foreign in my personal life. My mother’s family are rooted there and on my father’s side I even had a cousin qualified as a NG priest and my brother married into a Calvinist family- absolute wonderful man their father was.
    But why did women not respond to the 2009 research report by Landman and the decision of the Calvinist churches to disallow woman priesthood?
    Why has the Calvinist authority been silent? Are they waiting for AfriForum to do their dirty work?
    I could say, I suppose, that some of my family, best friends and neighbours are Calvinst but it sounds like some people saying some of my best friends are black under the circumstances:)
    It is not about the individual per se, it is about the social constructs that supported our violent history and that continue to perpetuate it.
    We are caught up in those constructs. We need to be aware of this and of how the constructs work if we are to take any sort of control and truly shape who we are.

  3. I might add Colonialist, that on another site, mostly ‘coloureds’ the question about the silence of the churches and church leaders on various issues is often referred. Those churches and leaders also do not respond.
    They are silent on gender abuse, violence against women, domestic abuse and absent fathers.
    They are also silent on political issues affecting their ‘coloured flock’ which is what the questioners are concerned about but the questioners also do not address the points I raised in the paragraph above.
    They are all predominately of Calvinist roots.
    God help the nation!

  4. @Jeanius- Like you I admired Max. I grew up with his articles and was a big fan. Now I think he’s the biggest idiot on the planet. I surpassed his 80’s views and yesterday’s insight. He want to use 80’s strategy which work back then with his articles in a country with new challenges and problems he is too blind to see. Like I told him. Best to retire like the Arch and call it a day. He is past his sell by date.

    • I am sorry Henri.
      I am sorry that Lulu was foolish in the way that she spoke.
      I am sorry that Max responded the way that he has.
      I am sorry that things are the way they are.

      I am very glad that you came by and commented.

  5. I also fail to make the connections. And why is it that the Boere are singled out? Is it not so that Calvin influenced all the churches and not just the ‘white’ churches?

    No really. I do not think Calvin is pulling the trigger on people of today. If it was like this then why did Jan van Riebeeck let Maria live? Why did Verwoerd not kill Betsie?

  6. :) as I said on another post- your argument is disingenuous:)
    Why did the Calvinist church in South Africa not follow the protocol of the rest of the Calvinist Churches as in ordaining women?
    Why did the Calvinist Church SA right up to 2009 teach women to crown their men as kings and themselves to be quiet and virtuous?

    Say you investigate something- gender in this case- you would examine the components of the influences on gender individually and then build a composite picture.
    In this case the attention was drawn to Calvinism South African style and Landman compared it to the Methodists and Moravians.
    So we can look at other influential institutions too – like how many women serve or the boards of how many major companies and in which positions?
    In the WC we have an all male cabinet except for the premier. It really shows how patriarchal we are…
    It is not possible after all that there are no women suitable to serve in that capacity.

  7. In my church, which is the Dutch Reformed Church (die ng kerk mos) which I visit sometimes up to two times a year, especially on Christmas, they have female dominees since 1990. This while the Anglican Church in England is still fighting over the issue of women bishops.

    But now let me also say, sadly, in my experience, I know of females in this country that also do not support the idea of female dominees. Ask me why? I dated a lady like that once. She said ‘no’ to female dominees because saint Paul said ‘no’ for women speaking in church somewhere in Bybel.

    Maar ek is self baie ten gunste van die vrou op die kansel en selfs van kelkies by die nagmaal.

    • Barend, I do not doubt that you are very open and honest- sometimes perhaps to your detriment?
      I had to train in gender for two years and perhaps 15 yrs later it dawns on me that women are violent and accept polygamy and lesser wages and all sorts of thing because they too are products of patriarchy and live it out in all aspects of their lives.
      How do I challenge you and expect that you should grasp the complexities just so overnight?
      I can only be grateful that you at least engage on the matter:)

  8. And so one will also find many many ladies who themselves welcome poligamy. And people are divided over poligamy, with many feminists saying no, poligamy is bad for women.

  9. Yes, the modern version of SA Calvinists do have female priests. The Fundamentalist SA Calvinists have however resisted this.
    Anglicans? They have robust and very public debates. Pro- gay priest, pro-gay bishops, pro-gay marriages and pro women priests have all won out and I have no doubt that the pro- bishops will win out too.
    One does not have to start a whole new branch of the Anglican church to achieve these changes though.
    Patriarchy depends on women and other hierarchical minors to support the customs and to embrace the system to perpetuate it.
    Once you have meted out sufficient punishments and awarded sufficient rewards, most people will adhere to the system and do the work of perpetuation for the top guys.
    Mothers are required to teach and train their daughters to be good women that fit smoothly into the system. It follows that women will monitor women because their popularity with men and their desirability as wives are depended on this.
    Redi has tried for years to get polygamist wives to talk about the advantages of that system on her radio and TV shows but even if they had agreed to, they never turn up.
    So the Calvinist women keep silent about crowning their husbands kings and polygamist wives are silent on polygamy. Go figure:)

  10. Jeanius daar is verskeie redes hoekom hierdie nie oortuig nie.

    Oscar is nie ‘n tradisionele soort Afrikaner nie, eerder ‘n moderne soort post-Afrikaner wat by ‘n Engelse skool in Pretoria skoolgegaan het, en lidmaat is van die 3C Church – ‘n kerkverband wat op ‘n strand by Sydney begin is.
    My vermoede is hy ken Calvinisme so swak soos as wat Xingwana Afrikaans ken.

    Die regte van vroue onder Afrikaners was nie reg in die verre verlede waarvan Christina Landman skryf nie, en is steeds nie waar dit moet wees nie, maar in elke land en volk van die wereld moet vroue vir hulle regte veg, ook alle groepe in SA. Tog kan ek geen redes sien om te dink dat Afrikaners hulle vroue meer verdruk as die mans van meeste ander volke nie, en dis regtig nie my gevoel dat Afrikaner Calvinisme uniek is in daardie verband nie.

    Indien Afrikaner Calvinisme werklik geblameer kan word vir die mate van geweld teen vroue, behoort daar persentasiegewys meer geweld teenoor vroue onder Afrikaners as onder ander Suid-Afrikaanse volke voor te kom. Die syfers hieroor is nie aan my bekend nie, maar ek dink ook nie dis aan jou of aan Xingwana bekend nie. As dit is, bring dit na vore. Vaste syfers behoort die beginpunt te wees vir enige so ‘n stelling, anders is ek bevrees dis bloot kwaadwillige verdagmakery.

    Al wat mens kan wys word uit jou en Xinwana se opinies – gemaak in die afwesigheid van feite volgens bevolkingsgroep, is watter groep julle albei nie van hou nie.

    PS: Ek wil nou ook nie die vlag swaai Afrikaner Calvinisme nie. Ek beskou die kerk as bloot irrelevant.

  11. Hello alleman:) Vir my gaan die nie oor Oscar per se nie. Dit vloei net uit die minister debakel en die Anene-Reeva -dode aan die hand van bekendes, geliefdes wat tel as femicide en violence against women.

    Daar is hoop dat Suid Afrikaanse aandag nou op geweld teen vroue gevestig is, dat ons die saak en al sy vorms beter sal verstaan en nie net sosiale ondersoek, maar ook selfondersoek sal instel om verandering te bring.
    Ek is glad nie Calvinis nie, nie eens ‘n man nie maar Calvinism het impak op my lewe gehad, het van my benadering tot goed beinvloed, en as ek nie tot stilstand gekom het nie, en daai ondersoek gedoen het nie, het ek noot besef tot in atter mate ek die Calviniste aanvaar het nie, en hoe ander kerke deur wetgewing ook die dinge aanvaar het nie.
    Die Engelse kerk was lank deel van die ondersteuning van Apartheid omdat dit deel van colonialism was – het ok maar stadig beweeg:)
    Nee, ek het my se oor Oscar gese en tot daar weer verwikkelinge is, het ek aanbeweeg.
    Voor Oscar, en nou na Reeva, het die ander sakie van geweld, veral geweld teen vroue nog my aandag geniet.

  12. So as jou Boere-bashing en leuens oor Max uitgewys word, sê jy bloot jy het “aanbeweeg”, en geweld teen vroue moet nou jou aandag geniet? Dis darem baie gerieflik!

  13. Nee, op watter dwaalspoor is jy?
    Ek se oor Oscar praat ek nie nou nie want sy saak en nuwe feite moet nog lig sien. … jy het van Oscar gepraat.
    Verder se ek dat die kritieke punt van hoe Calvinisme, of colonialism, of Apartheid, of die Struggle se invloede op ons as ‘n land en sy mense en veral op vrouens ‘n ernstige gesprek is.
    Max het wel vir Oscar genoem maar self aanbeweeg na homself, sy familie en geweld en gese dat Calvinisme niks met geweld / of weerhouing van ‘n vrou se regte te doen het nie.
    Ek het die Landman-studie gepos om e wys dat Calvinisme wel invloed op geweld en vroue grhad het en nog in 2009 .vroue gevra het om hulle mans as konings te olie en te eer om waardige vroue te wees so God dit wil he.
    Ek vra dat Max dit sal antwoord. Jy ook- jy kan ook die studie antwoord.
    Ek het ook deel van die studie op ‘n Soladariteit-Max blad gepos.

  14. alleman, ek pos nou al jare op vroue, gender en sosiale strukture. Dis Maart- internasionale vrouemaand. Met of sonder Oscar sou ek hier uitkom en by Anglikaanse Biskoppe- maar Barend het my nou klaar voorgespring met daai een:)

  15. And alleman, with regards to Oscar- he is a killer. He killed with intent when he closed in on the toilet door and fired 4 shots through it at someone who had no place to hide and no way to escape.

    There are only two essential questions to be anwered: Is he guilty of premeditated murder?
    and
    Did he intend to kill Reeva?

    Whatever the outcomes of those questions may be, nothing changes that she died at the hands of an intimate partner- femicide.

  16. Met respek, ek dink jy het ‘n leesprobleem. Dalk lees jy met vooropgestelde gevolgtrekkings en daarom kan jy nie sien wat ek skryf nie.
    Ek het nie vir Oscar kom verdedig nie, waar het jy dit gesien?

    Ek het geskryf oor die manier waarop die dade van een persoon deur ‘n minister en deur jouself gebruik word om ‘n hele bevolkingsgroep by te kom.

    En omdat Max nou nie met die minister (en jou) gevolgtrekking saam stem nie, lei jy sommer af Max het nou alles waarvoor hy nog altyd gestaan het, net so gelos en is nou skielik ‘n apolgeet vir Apartheid, rassisme, die Reitz – urine studente en allerlei wrede moorde op swart mense. Waar het jy dit gesien? Dis nie logies of redelik nie, en ander menseregte aktiviste – mense aan jou kant van die struggle – sal nie met jou saamstem dat jy nou vir Max met sulke dinge kan impliseer bloot omdat hy nie met die minister saamstem nie.

    Die manier hoe jy oor Max skryf is smeerskrywery van die ergste graad en bes moontlik laster wat tot ‘n eis teen jou sou lei as Max sou besluit om ‘n saak te maak.

    • Alleman- in my pingback comments:

      Constitutionally Speaking
      Submitted on 2013/03/06 at 2:52 pm

      [...] has written, “local Calvinism was as sexist as it was racist” (see an excerpt from the article here). This local form of Calvinism, which still grips gender relations in Afrikaner families, dictates [...]

      Follow me on twitter
      Quote of the week

      March 6, 2013 | 14:52 pm

      The reactions to Xingwana’s utterance (eg it is “an extreme verbal attack on the integrity of Afrikaners” and “a sign of religious intolerance”) suggest that Afrikaner men and religious doctrine are both above criticism. Given the widely promoted predilection for forgetting, we have forgotten that a particular interpretation of Calvinism underpinned the Christian nationalism that drove the project of apartheid. Moreover, as theologian Christina Landman has written, “local Calvinism was as sexist as it was racist” (see an excerpt from the article here). This local form of Calvinism, which still grips gender relations in Afrikaner families, dictates that “part of the salvation of the soul was the subordination of the female body to male rule, both in intimate spaces and the church”, as Landman finds. This explains resurgent collaborations between Afrikaner women and men to reinstall “the Afrikaner man” as “king and priest” of the household, as currently promoted in congregations such as Moreleta Park Dutch Reformed Church. While Xingwana is condemned, the same critics fall over their feet to defend white Afrikaner men — the group that benefited most from apartheid. Their manoeuvres dovetail nicely with Time’s efforts at deflecting culpability in the Pistorius case away from masculinity and onto blackness. Thus it is ensured that the hard questions are shut out: the questions about an entitled, damaged and damaging masculinity that seeks to claw back power through violence. – Christi van der Westhuizen on Thought Leader
      RSSArchive for Quote of the week »

  17. Ek lees jou alleman. En dit is nie laster om Landman se werk te pos en dan te vra dat Max dit beantwoord nie, of om te se dat ek nie sy kommetaar op Lulu se uitlatings bewonder nie.
    Ek verwag meer van Max.
    Ek stem ook nie saam met die manier waarop Lulu haar uitlatings gemaak het nie dit beteken nie dat ek nie kontekst vir dit sal wys nie en verder daarop sal uitbrei nie.
    Ek glo dat ek reeds politieke / ras balans vir dit gegee het deur oor Struggle en geweld te pos.
    Die een bevolkingsgroep is verantwoordelik vir Apartheid en al die geweld wat daarmee gepaard gegaan het. Hulle het wel baie ondersteuning gehad van mense / groepe wat vandag dit nie sal erken nie. Maar daar is studies wat dit bewys al word daar oor gestry.
    Die Calviniste kerk was ‘n magtige rolspeler in daardie geskiedenis
    en steeds in die status van vroue.
    Ek probeer wel balans bring en nie om een speler alleenlik te raak nie.
    As jy ander poste lees sal jy wel sien dat ek voel dat mans geweld teen vroue en mans wat swakker beskou word onmiddelik kan stop.
    Miskien het jy hiermee ook ‘n probleem.
    Ek stem nie saam met Max se argument soos gestel nie; ek stem nie saam met Lulu se argument soos gestel nie.
    Ek het ‘n studie geplaas wat the Calviniste Kerk Suid Afrika in die middel van die debat oor die ondermyning van vroue stel en mans as konings bo vroue plaas.
    Dit sou beter wees as jy die studie wou aanvat – miskien vir Max as hy nie kan nie.
    En as hy sou en kan, leer ek miskien iets nuut.
    Huidiglik is beide die rassistise en en die argument teen die punt van die ondermyning van vroue wat reeds jare gelig word- so ook die persoonlike aanval wat daarmee gepaard gaan.
    Jy sal oplet dat ek geen persoonlike aanvalle op Max geloots het nie.
    Ek het gese dat ek nie sy reaksie of kommntaar bewonder nie dat ek meer insig van hom af verwag en gevra dat hy die Landman studie sal t’rugvoeter.
    Dit is nie onredelik nie.
    Ek het ook in die reeks poste genoem dat Calviniste nie die uitsluitlike oorsaak van geweld in die land of teen vroue is nie.
    Dit is ook redelik.
    Dit is ook naif om te dink dat mans skielik sal ophou met vroueondermyning en hulle maats ernstig daarop sal aanspreek en self sal afskryf om veranering te dwing, maar mens begin seker iewers.
    Max is n rubriekskrywer. Hy skryf om uit te lok en reaksie te kry. Die dag wanneer hy nie meer reaksie kry nie of almal net met hom saamstem, is hy nie meer nuus nie.

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